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Post by Deep Space on Jan 29, 2022 17:19:16 GMT
So for you, it's the behaviour that's a problem, not the actual opinions expressed? Yes I guess it is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally don’t go around thinking everyone thinks like me. But if they don’t so what? I say what I see. I dislike the way folk tell me how I should behave. You behave how you want and I’ll behave how I want. You think I’m a twat , fair dos. I think wokes are bigger twats cos they constantly go on and on about how bad we all are. That's a fair enough answer. What aggravates me is that people assume this is only a left-wing trait when it's actually just a human behaviour trait. Using a term like woke is pretty much on a par with a term like fascist. It's designed to erode free speech & silence what is in truth a minority viewpoint. People who try to shut up dissent or contradictory views are a problem, but I honestly don't think that is confined to a narrow band of lefties. |
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 29, 2022 17:41:41 GMT
Right wing WOKE? How does that work then? By it's very nature its extreme and often fanatical Liberalism.
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Post by Deep Space on Jan 29, 2022 18:07:36 GMT
Right wing WOKE? How does that work then? By it's very nature its extreme and often fanatical Liberalism. I'm assuming from the reply that you've unblocked me? I asked turbo2 if it was the politics or the behaviour that bothered him & he replied saying it was the behaviour mostly. Which is fine. I agree that people who shout others down, can't argue in a reasonable way, expect compliance to their worldview and use abuse to make points are a problem in society and a threat to free speech. The issue about WHAT they believe is largely irrelevant. |
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Post by easylover on Jan 29, 2022 18:57:46 GMT
Right wing WOKE? How does that work then? By it's very nature its extreme and often fanatical Liberalism. I'm assuming from the reply that you've unblocked me? I asked turbo2 if it was the politics or the behaviour that bothered him & he replied saying it was the behaviour mostly. Which is fine. I agree that people who shout others down, can't argue in a reasonable way, expect compliance to their worldview and use abuse to make points are a problem in society and a threat to free speech. The issue about WHAT they believe is largely irrelevant. I don't think he's blocked anyone, DS. My theory is that faced with any sort of challenge - and I'm talking reasoned arguments, so easily dismissed as "trolling" - his insecurity kicks in; his flawed reasoning, flimsy arguments and barely-concealed prejudices are exposed for all - well, some - to see. Rather than face scrutiny from someone who's able and willing to counter, the reaction is to flounce off, yet enjoy the attention. Seems common amongst conspiracy theorists, and it's a textbook tell of a narcissistic sociopath. It doesn't help that parts of this forum - not all, some - are echo-chambers for some pretty batshit mental conspiracy theories, that really ought to be challenged. Because you know, risk to life. Just ask Meatloaf's friends, family and fans. You seem fairly smart, DS - so I ask; who's the "troll", and do you think threads like the one on Covid here are healthy? |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 29, 2022 19:14:00 GMT
Yes I guess it is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally don’t go around thinking everyone thinks like me. But if they don’t so what? I say what I see. I dislike the way folk tell me how I should behave. You behave how you want and I’ll behave how I want. You think I’m a twat , fair dos. I think wokes are bigger twats cos they constantly go on and on about how bad we all are. That's a fair enough answer. What aggravates me is that people assume this is only a left-wing trait when it's actually just a human behaviour trait. Using a term like woke is pretty much on a par with a term like fascist. It's designed to erode free speech & silence what is in truth a minority viewpoint. People who try to shut up dissent or contradictory views are a problem, but I honestly don't think that is confined to a narrow band of lefties. I think 'extreme woke' of the kind that both bewilders for its inane stupidity and gets peoples backs up for its sinister implications and is killing freedom of speech and thought is definitely a minority viewpoint. A small minority IMO But what isn't small is the power this minority group yield. They seem to have an almost complete control over every aspect of UK life now, from politics to entertainment to education to business. I think its a trait favoured by many on the left ( though it in itself is a form of overzealous liberalism ) and it mirrors the growing intolerance the left has to anyone of a different persuasion.. ie 'the scum' as Raynor would put it. |
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Post by captainblack on Jan 30, 2022 8:17:26 GMT
Yes I guess it is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally don’t go around thinking everyone thinks like me. But if they don’t so what? I say what I see. I dislike the way folk tell me how I should behave. You behave how you want and I’ll behave how I want. You think I’m a twat , fair dos. I think wokes are bigger twats cos they constantly go on and on about how bad we all are. That's a fair enough answer. What aggravates me is that people assume this is only a left-wing trait when it's actually just a human behaviour trait. Using a term like woke is pretty much on a par with a term like fascist. It's designed to erode free speech & silence what is in truth a minority viewpoint. People who try to shut up dissent or contradictory views are a problem, but I honestly don't think that is confined to a narrow band of lefties. I think the term woke is generally directed at people with left wing ideals , John Mcdonnell had stated that people disagreeing with a left wing agenda should be "shouted down" , Its something I totally disagree with , I might dislike a lot I hear from the Tory party , but I want to hear their views , I don't generally refer to people as "woke" or "gammon" but the "woke" agenda is to gradually silence free speech , something a small minority have managed to achieve in this country I believe . I think the media (who I distrust) seem to be gradually strangling free speech and imposing certain views that the majority of the public disagree with . I believe the last election highlighted the fact that the left wing of the Labour party were completely out of touch with the electorate and that a small number of people such as momentum were not going to influence the population. |
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Post by Deep Space on Jan 30, 2022 9:42:50 GMT
I'm assuming from the reply that you've unblocked me? I asked turbo2 if it was the politics or the behaviour that bothered him & he replied saying it was the behaviour mostly. Which is fine. I agree that people who shout others down, can't argue in a reasonable way, expect compliance to their worldview and use abuse to make points are a problem in society and a threat to free speech. The issue about WHAT they believe is largely irrelevant. I don't think he's blocked anyone, DS. My theory is that faced with any sort of challenge - and I'm talking reasoned arguments, so easily dismissed as "trolling" - his insecurity kicks in; his flawed reasoning, flimsy arguments and barely-concealed prejudices are exposed for all - well, some - to see. Rather than face scrutiny from someone who's able and willing to counter, the reaction is to flounce off, yet enjoy the attention. Seems common amongst conspiracy theorists, and it's a textbook tell of a narcissistic sociopath. It doesn't help that parts of this forum - not all, some - are echo-chambers for some pretty batshit mental conspiracy theories, that really ought to be challenged. Because you know, risk to life. Just ask Meatloaf's friends, family and fans. You seem fairly smart, DS - so I ask; who's the "troll", and do you think threads like the one on Covid here are healthy? I think to answer that question actually gets right to the heart of the point I have been making. What is the real problem? I think there are several issues that all just seem to crash into each other these days. The reason I tend to press on the issue of trying to define 'woke' is that it seems an easy hit to me to try & discredit people that express unpopular opinions. It's really just a mirror image of people who might express a legitimate concern about immigration & are immediately branded racist. That's why I always ask if it's the politics that are the issue or the behaviour. If it's the latter, I totally agree & have no time at all for anyone who uses bullying tactics to silence debate. The other thing that we have at the moment is the array of conspiracies. I mentioned elsewhere this behaviour is probably just something fundamental to human psychology, but what is different today is the tools for dissemination, meaning we all get exposed to an array of them all the time. So, with regards to your question about the covid thread. I rarely contribute to it personally because there doesn't seem to be a great deal of point a lot of the time. Following my own very traumatic experience with it, I'm respectful of it as an illness. I always cringe when I see comments about vulnerable people as that is my everyday life (sarcastic comments about hiding behind settees or wetting themselves are just another form of ill-informed nonsense to try & shut an argument down), but I have kids & grandkids who I don't want to see shut away for ever, so just call me confused! But I don't think any subject ever should be beyond debate. The language we use though is very important. From where I sit, as soon as anyone starts calling me woke, or that I'm brainwashed by MSM or whatever, all that tells me is that the poster has run out of ideas & doesn't have any real information to back up what they are saying. But in a way, I've found myself crossing swords with complete morons enough times in real life, so I think it's just the way things are! Hope that makes some sense...being concise was never my strong point! |
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Post by Deep Space on Jan 30, 2022 9:46:19 GMT
That's a fair enough answer. What aggravates me is that people assume this is only a left-wing trait when it's actually just a human behaviour trait. Using a term like woke is pretty much on a par with a term like fascist. It's designed to erode free speech & silence what is in truth a minority viewpoint. People who try to shut up dissent or contradictory views are a problem, but I honestly don't think that is confined to a narrow band of lefties. I think 'extreme woke' of the kind that both bewilders for its inane stupidity and gets peoples backs up for its sinister implications and is killing freedom of speech and thought is definitely a minority viewpoint. A small minority IMO But what isn't small is the power this minority group yield. They seem to have an almost complete control over every aspect of UK life now, from politics to entertainment to education to business. I think its a trait favoured by many on the left ( though it in itself is a form of overzealous liberalism ) and it mirrors the growing intolerance the left has to anyone of a different persuasion.. ie 'the scum' as Raynor would put it. Intolerance on the left has been given a label of wokeism, but again it isn't a unique form of behaviour. We don't have to look far to find right-wing intolerance or even apolitical intolerance. That's why I dislike the term so much because as soon as we conflate the behaviour & the opinions, then that becomes a form of free speech closure. |
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Post by foxtrot777 on Jan 30, 2022 9:56:03 GMT
I don't think he's blocked anyone, DS. My theory is that faced with any sort of challenge - and I'm talking reasoned arguments, so easily dismissed as "trolling" - his insecurity kicks in; his flawed reasoning, flimsy arguments and barely-concealed prejudices are exposed for all - well, some - to see. Rather than face scrutiny from someone who's able and willing to counter, the reaction is to flounce off, yet enjoy the attention. Seems common amongst conspiracy theorists, and it's a textbook tell of a narcissistic sociopath. It doesn't help that parts of this forum - not all, some - are echo-chambers for some pretty batshit mental conspiracy theories, that really ought to be challenged. Because you know, risk to life. Just ask Meatloaf's friends, family and fans. You seem fairly smart, DS - so I ask; who's the "troll", and do you think threads like the one on Covid here are healthy? I think to answer that question actually gets right to the heart of the point I have been making. What is the real problem? I think there are several issues that all just seem to crash into each other these days. The reason I tend to press on the issue of trying to define 'woke' is that it seems an easy hit to me to try & discredit people that express unpopular opinions. It's really just a mirror image of people who might express a legitimate concern about immigration & are immediately branded racist. That's why I always ask if it's the politics that are the issue or the behaviour. If it's the latter, I totally agree & have no time at all for anyone who uses bullying tactics to silence debate. The other thing that we have at the moment is the array of conspiracies. I mentioned elsewhere this behaviour is probably just something fundamental to human psychology, but what is different today is the tools for dissemination, meaning we all get exposed to an array of them all the time. So, with regards to your question about the covid thread. I rarely contribute to it personally because there doesn't seem to be a great deal of point a lot of the time. Following my own very traumatic experience with it, I'm respectful of it as an illness. I always cringe when I see comments about vulnerable people as that is my everyday life (sarcastic comments about hiding behind settees or wetting themselves are just another form of ill-informed nonsense to try & shut an argument down), but I have kids & grandkids who I don't want to see shut away for ever, so just call me confused!
But I don't think any subject ever should be beyond debate. The language we use though is very important. From where I sit, as soon as anyone starts calling me woke, or that I'm brainwashed by MSM or whatever, all that tells me is that the poster has run out of ideas & doesn't have any real information to back up what they are saying. But in a way, I've found myself crossing swords with complete morons enough times in real life, so I think it's just the way things are! Hope that makes some sense...being concise was never my strong point! I agree, can't do with woke/ gammon shit, it usually leads to even more name calling and ends up like a school playground, it was the main reason I hardly ever posted on the politics board on the other side. |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 30, 2022 16:24:33 GMT
I think 'extreme woke' of the kind that both bewilders for its inane stupidity and gets peoples backs up for its sinister implications and is killing freedom of speech and thought is definitely a minority viewpoint. A small minority IMO But what isn't small is the power this minority group yield. They seem to have an almost complete control over every aspect of UK life now, from politics to entertainment to education to business. I think its a trait favoured by many on the left ( though it in itself is a form of overzealous liberalism ) and it mirrors the growing intolerance the left has to anyone of a different persuasion.. ie 'the scum' as Raynor would put it. but again it isn't a unique form of behaviour. We don't have to look far to find right-wing intolerance or even apolitical intolerance. That's why I dislike the term so much because as soon as we conflate the behaviour & the opinions, then that becomes a form of free speech closure. Dont think it has. I wouldn't say the intolerance of opposing ( ie- non socialist ) thinking or those that have those views ( Tory scum, the gammon ) is particularly 'woke'. Its just intolerance. 'Woke' intolerance is more when its specifically about 'woke' issues.. race, sexuality, etc etc |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2022 17:18:38 GMT
That's a fair enough answer. What aggravates me is that people assume this is only a left-wing trait when it's actually just a human behaviour trait. Using a term like woke is pretty much on a par with a term like fascist. It's designed to erode free speech & silence what is in truth a minority viewpoint. People who try to shut up dissent or contradictory views are a problem, but I honestly don't think that is confined to a narrow band of lefties. I don't think many people (in the normal course of events) would be happy to be called 'fascist'....certainly in the UK. But I suspect the average wokester takes pride in being recognised as/labelled 'woke'......they exist in a largely 'woke world' (eg Unis), and are unlikely to be offended by another's acknowledgement of their wokeism. |
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Post by Deep Space on Jan 30, 2022 22:10:11 GMT
Intolerance on the left has been given a label of wokeism, but again it isn't a unique form of behaviour. We don't have to look far to find right-wing intolerance or even apolitical intolerance. That's why I dislike the term so much because as soon as we conflate the behaviour & the opinions, then that becomes a form of free speech closure. Dont think it has. I wouldn't say the intolerance of opposing ( ie- non socialist ) thinking or those that have those views ( Tory scum, the gammon ) is particularly 'woke'. Its just intolerance. 'Woke' intolerance is more when its specifically about 'woke' issues.. race, sexuality, etc etc OK, so if I accept that definition, & I get where you are coming from with it, why are those issues being labelled as 'woke' in particular? Are they not simply issues that some people feel very strongly about, much as other people feel strongly about immigration, for example? As soon as you put a label on a lawful point of view (as opposed to the behaviour or language used by the proponent of that view) then I think that's really about shutting them up, or at least trying to 'win' an argument without anything to hold a position together. |
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Post by Deep Space on Jan 30, 2022 22:12:37 GMT
That's a fair enough answer. What aggravates me is that people assume this is only a left-wing trait when it's actually just a human behaviour trait. Using a term like woke is pretty much on a par with a term like fascist. It's designed to erode free speech & silence what is in truth a minority viewpoint. People who try to shut up dissent or contradictory views are a problem, but I honestly don't think that is confined to a narrow band of lefties. I don't think many people (in the normal course of events) would be happy to be called 'fascist'....certainly in the UK. But I suspect the average wokester takes pride in being recognised as/labelled 'woke'......they exist in a largely 'woke world' (eg Unis), and are unlikely to be offended by another's acknowledgement of their wokeism. Perhaps a small minority might, but most people I know on the left dislike the term for reasons I've outlined elsewhere. Nobody likes their political views to be belittled, whatever term of abuse might be used to do it. |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 31, 2022 9:55:13 GMT
Dont think it has. I wouldn't say the intolerance of opposing ( ie- non socialist ) thinking or those that have those views ( Tory scum, the gammon ) is particularly 'woke'. Its just intolerance. 'Woke' intolerance is more when its specifically about 'woke' issues.. race, sexuality, etc etc OK, so if I accept that definition, & I get where you are coming from with it, why are those issues being labelled as 'woke' in particular? Are they not simply issues that some people feel very strongly about, much as other people feel strongly about immigration, for example? As soon as you put a label on a lawful point of view (as opposed to the behaviour or language used by the proponent of that view) then I think that's really about shutting them up, or at least trying to 'win' an argument without anything to hold a position together. I guess its a backlash, not necessarily against the basic principles that are being pushed ( the 'wokeness' if you like ) but against the types who seem to constantly do it and often in extremely bizarre, intolerant ways. Just a label to put to it all when someone decided 'right-on' or 'PC' didnt cut it anymore Think pretty much everybody is 'woke' these days and it's not a bad thing at all. Be it about sexuality, or race. Peoples attitudes have changed a lot over the past few decades and for the better. So id agree labelling these things as 'woke' as a negative is unfair. But it isn't that which causes the issue IMO and isn't really what 'woke' as a negative is aimed at. Its the 'extreme' woke agenda that does that. The often ridiculous levels of non-sensical 'wokeness' that has an utter contempt and intolerance of anyone who doesnt comply. The stuff that is actually not progressive at all.. its just wrong , its sinister and trying to take us backwards to some medieval level of brain-addled obsession and intolerance. |
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Post by chedtippington on Jan 31, 2022 11:00:19 GMT
Tom Tugendhat now7-1 hope you alltook the advise
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