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Post by captslapper on Feb 9, 2022 9:47:36 GMT
Anyone else had an eye on the current debate ( though turns out there isn't much of one ) over what will happen to state pensions in Scotland should the SNP get their way and Scotland becomes independent.
The SNP have been claiming that the pensioners of Scotland will continue to receive their pensions from the UK pension pot.
This will be reasonable goodwill by the UK apparently, as Mr McHaggis from Dundee has been paying into it for the last 45 years. So only fair he gets his 'investment' back.
The problem with this notion by the SNP, is that its bullshit and its now being explained to them that its bullshit in a genuine hammer blow to their chances of a yes vote.
There is no pension pot. You dont pay into some sort of fund that you then take back incrementally when you retire, like you might a private pension.
Your contributions to the state pension when you are working goes to the pensioners AT THAT TIME.
When you retire, your pension is in turn, paid for from the taxes of the people working AT THAT TIME.
So what the SNP are thinking is going to happen, is that the tax payers of England, Wales and NI will not only fund their own pensioners, but also fund the pensioners of another country, Scotland.
Er.. dont think so somehow Nicola!
In The Herald, someone writing in likened it to a flat mate who falls out with you, moves out to live on their own, but then thinks he can come back and use your washing machine for free.
Probably the first of quite a few home truths the SNP will have to contend with if and when they get another referendum.
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Post by sabre on Feb 9, 2022 10:07:22 GMT
Fuck ‘em.
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Post by gingerbreadman on Feb 9, 2022 10:15:55 GMT
I think that much of the pro-independence case is predecated on North Sea oil revenues flowing into Scotland at the same levels as they did in the 80s and 90s, however by the time independence were to actually happen (I doubt it will) those revenues will have slowed to a trickle. I don't think that Scotland can actually afford true independence and the pensions aspect (not one I'd even considered before) is another significant factor to prevent it from happening.
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Post by foxtrot777 on Feb 9, 2022 10:24:22 GMT
Only 5.5 million live in Scotland and obviously a large chunk of that figure will be non tax payers. It would be interesting if they did get independence and quite honestly I wouldn't lose any sleep if they did but financially I just can't see how they could survive, don't see it happening any time soon.
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Post by santiagoterrier on Feb 9, 2022 10:30:09 GMT
How will Dundee’s very own Mr. McHaggis receive his pension ? In £’s or will there have to be Mc£’s or indeed Mc€’s ?
The whole notion of a United Kingdom has been a bit of a misnomer for some time, free NHS prescriptions if your in Wales and Scotland, different drink drive limits in Carlisle to Glasgow, free University education for your kids in Edinburgh but not in Middlesbrough.
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Post by foxtrot777 on Feb 9, 2022 10:36:48 GMT
I suspect free prescriptions and university places would be the first things to go if they get independence, it really pisses me off that our kids are saddled with years of debt for getting an education and north of the border it's free, totally wrong.
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Post by gingerbreadman on Feb 9, 2022 10:51:52 GMT
How will Dundee’s very own Mr. McHaggis receive his pension ? In £’s or will there have to be Mc£’s or indeed Mc€’s ?The whole notion of a United Kingdom has been a bit of a misnomer for some time, free NHS prescriptions if your in Wales and Scotland, different drink drive limits in Carlisle to Glasgow, free University education for your kids in Edinburgh but not in Middlesbrough. I presume they'll introduce the Scottish Poond  |
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Post by Deep Space on Feb 9, 2022 11:05:46 GMT
I suspect free prescriptions and university places would be the first things to go if they get independence, it really pisses me off that our kids are saddled with years of debt for getting an education and north of the border it's free, totally wrong. This arrangement isn't totally uncommon where you have any sort of devolved power. In a sense, it's a sort of independence light. Scots do get all those things, but they also have higher taxes to pay for them. England is sticking to a policy of if you want a higher education, one way or another you pay for it yourself. Scotland takes a view that society benefits so society pays. Both are legitimate approaches in truth.
With regards to prescriptions, without doing an up-to-date check, but I think around 90% of prescriptions are not charged for in the pharmacy. Either because of an entitlement to free ones, pre-payments or whatever. As someone who is heavily dependent on (prescribed) drugs I sometimes feel aggrieved that I'm being taxed (or it feels that way) for having health problems, but when I talk to people in America who have similar conditions, a tenner a month looks an absolute bargain for staying alive!
With regards to the subject, I think that if full independence ever happens, the financial bloodbath that will ensue will make Brexit look like primary school maths.
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Post by santiagoterrier on Feb 9, 2022 11:57:07 GMT
How will Dundee’s very own Mr. McHaggis receive his pension ? In £’s or will there have to be Mc£’s or indeed Mc€’s ?The whole notion of a United Kingdom has been a bit of a misnomer for some time, free NHS prescriptions if your in Wales and Scotland, different drink drive limits in Carlisle to Glasgow, free University education for your kids in Edinburgh but not in Middlesbrough. I presume they'll introduce the Scottish Poond  Of course I could have mentioned that they still have pound notes north of the border and as a wagon driver who went to East Kilbride once or twice a week for the best part of ten years if you get a Scottish fiver in your change it’s not a problem spending it in Carlisle but much more of an issue if you take it any further south. |
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Post by captslapper on Feb 9, 2022 12:02:28 GMT
I think that much of the pro-independence case is predecated on North Sea oil revenues flowing into Scotland at the same levels as they did in the 80s and 90s, however by the time independence were to actually happen (I doubt it will) those revenues will have slowed to a trickle. I don't think that Scotland can actually afford true independence and the pensions aspect (not one I'd even considered before) is another significant factor to prevent it from happening. Yeah, basing your economic future on fossil fuels doesnt seem very 'trendy' in this day and age does it? From what I can tell they dont actually want 'independence' at all. The SNP that is. They just want to switch from being a small member of one union to being an even smaller member of another. They currently have around 9% 'say' in the union theyre in based in Westminster , and have an awful lot of devolved power to go along with it. They'll be switching to a position where they have 0.9% 'say' in Brussells . Thats presuming the EU are happy to welcome in another negative contributor to suckle on the teets of the few members who actually put more in than they take out of course, in the same way the Scots have been suckling on Englands teet for so long. And also that the EU allow Scotland to jump the queue of all the various other potential negative contributors wanting to jump on that gravy train. that might be another home truth Nicola has to contend with in time? Maybe the German tax payers will happily pay the pension of Mr McHaggis ?? |
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Post by captainblack on Feb 9, 2022 12:42:42 GMT
Only 5.5 million live in Scotland and obviously a large chunk of that figure will be non tax payers. It would be interesting if they did get independence and quite honestly I wouldn't lose any sleep if they did but financially I just can't see how they could survive, don't see it happening any time soon. I think Scotland would survive o.k. , you have the Baltic states which have a lower population than Scotland. However Nicola Sturgeon seems to be suggesting to the population of Scotland that its going to become some kind of utopia , something I doubt very much. It reminds me of the brexiteers trying to convince me off the same thing . I will give brexit about 5 years and then see where we stand, at the moment its neither been a total failure or a success , I think Scottish independence (if it happens ) will be very similar. |
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Post by captslapper on Feb 9, 2022 15:27:15 GMT
other things the Scottish voters should consider re, this pension thing when Sturgeon promises them a wonderful pension package after independence-
Average income in Scotland is lower than England ( the lowest of all 4 home nations in fact ) , and they have a higher percentage of over 65s than England that they'll have to support.
I think there's a big, glaring difference when comparing the debate around Scottish independence and Brexit.
Thats that the rest of the UK will actually be better off financially if Scotland leaves the union.. something that obviously wasn't the case with the EU and the UK leaving.
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Post by foxtrot777 on Feb 9, 2022 15:39:52 GMT
Only 5.5 million live in Scotland and obviously a large chunk of that figure will be non tax payers. It would be interesting if they did get independence and quite honestly I wouldn't lose any sleep if they did but financially I just can't see how they could survive, don't see it happening any time soon. I think Scotland would survive o.k. , you have the Baltic states which have a lower population than Scotland. However Nicola Sturgeon seems to be suggesting to the population of Scotland that its going to become some kind of utopia , something I doubt very much. It reminds me of the brexiteers trying to convince me off the same thing . I will give brexit about 5 years and then see where we stand, at the moment its neither been a total failure or a success , I think Scottish independence (if it happens ) will be very similar. Not sure you can compare Baltic states with Scotland, do they have an NHS or social services to support ? Nowhere near enough people to support the lifestyle they enjoy today. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 13:22:23 GMT
Didn't take long for Sturgeon to withdraw her nonsensical claim. As she now confirms, resolving pensions issues would fall with the Assets/Liabilities carve-up in the event of separation.
After 300-odd years of union, and the immense economic/social integration which has taken place during that time, allocating those assets and liabilities will be exceptionally complex. But two key factors spring to mind....the fast-depleting oil/gas reserves in Scottish waters, and the horrendous level of the national debt (now some £2.3 trillion, excluding pensions liabilities). And matters could be further complicated by Scotland joining the EU, and hence eurozone....exchange rate fluctuations would come into play. As regards trade, the English/Scottish border would become 'hard', yet this is where most of Scotland's trade passes...more hassle for them.
If a second referendum were to get the go-ahead, I assume a new Project Fear would be born. Even if it stuck to facts and sensible assumptions, it should put the fear of God into Scottish voters. I certainly believe a majority of Scots are far too sensible and rational to support independence.
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Post by captslapper on Feb 13, 2022 11:18:55 GMT
Surely any 'divorce bill' carve up would be Scotland repaying the UK, not the other way round? Baring in mind how much UK taxpayer funded investment there is in Scotland?
She seems a little delusional as this state pension episode illustrates, so maybe she's presuming, amongst all the other presumptions, that the UK will be compensating Scotland for leaving the union?!!
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