Shrewsbury and Telford NHS trust.

[foxtrot777]

What a shocking story, 201 babies died who should have been saved, dozens of others received  life changing injuries, WTF was going on ? Doctors and mid wives told not to co-operate with the enquiry hopefully the people behind this will be accountable and face justice. How much will it cost the NHS in claims, what price can you put on a babies life, it's an absolute disgrace.

  

[Deleted]

The report suggests over a period of 20 years - "There were not enough staff, there was a lack of ongoing training, there was a lack of effective investigation and governance at the trust and a culture of not listening to the families involved, and the trust was not held to account by external bodies".

The interim report was published TWO YEARS ago - Javid today says, ""Since the initial report was published in 2020 we have taken steps to invest in maternity services and grow the workforce"...

AND YET...as of less than 6 months ago -

www.cqc.org.uk/provider/RXW

Why are failing Trusts not taken out of the NHS mismanagement control, offered up for private tender to operate whilst continuing to receive public funding, but conditional on turning around scorecards and maintaining high levels of service - with government retaining the power to re-license them or bring them back into government/NHS control on certain measures, much as they do with the rail operator licenses (not that that is a massive success!!).

[captslapper]

The NHS needs a complete re-think.
Every successive government piles more and more money at it but time and again that proves to not be the solution.
Was 3% of GDP back in the 1950s and 60s but now stands at 12.8% of GDP.

The demands on it are so great. Medical advancements so expensive . Inefficiencies monumental. In terms of the numbers and the age of who it has to care for its a victim of its own success in a way. But so much of it is simply unfit for purpose.

Problem we have is that its so engrained in the publics mentality that it has to be run how it is, that any politician even suggesting anything different is putting their career on the line, something almost none are willing to do.

[sabre]

I agree it needs a complete over haul if not more.

I’d be interested to hear how much Mel pays for the (v.good) Spanish health system.

[El Mel]

Mar 30, 2022 11:42:24 GMT sabre said:

I agree it needs a complete over haul if not more.

I’d be interested to hear how much Mel pays for the (v.good) Spanish health system.

As i'm self employed mate, known as "Autonomo" here, I pay just over 300 euros a month for the equivalant of what is the Social Security payment in the Uk - which was about 8 quid a month when I left there. That entitles me to healthcare, as well as all the family, and I'll also be eligible for a Spanish pension if I contribute for 15 years.
In terms of my self employment, I probably pay about 1000 euros a month in total to the tax office - it's way more than I'd pay in the Uk for a similar income.

If you want good healtcare, roads, public services, then they have to be paid for unfortunately.

[captslapper]

Do you pay an equivalent of national insurance on top of your income tax in Spain Mel?

I notice Spanish VAT is slightly more than ours at 21%.

Death and taxes, as the saying goes.

[santiagoterrier]

Speaking as someone whose wife was an NHS nurse, in my opinion there are several ways to make big improvements to the NHS and none of them would cost money on the contrary they would create savings, however when it was formed in 1948 it was treating 50 Million people with a life expectancy of 66 years, nowadays it’s 70 Million people with a life expectancy of 81 years and some of the drugs and treatments routinely used cost far more than it was ever envisaged at the start.

Scrap League Tables.
I genuinely believe they cause more harm than good, in theory they are a good idea but in practice they make things worse and not just NHS but police, schools and the rest, they simply result in authorities coming up with schemes to massage them rather than make genuine improvements.

For example Hospital “A” is low down in the league table for patients being seen when attending A&E, their solution is make sure everyone is booked in by a nurse within 30 minutes of attending, not actually given any treatment, that will have to wait for another hour or more but your position in the league table rises towards the top because everyone is seen within the time limits.

Address the “NHS is free culture”
Of course it’s not free, but too many people believe that it is because they don’t pay at the point of use and as a result their attitude is the same as attending a works Christmas party with a free bar, normally they would have half a mild but because it’s free they have a double brandy and don’t drink all of it.

We constantly hear of people not attending doctors appointments, that figure would reduce if there was a penalty, also for example why should everyone be fed and watered for free while an inpatient ? If you’re 35, employed with an above average wage you would be paying to eat while you’re at home, why not continue to do so while in hospital (and of course children, OAPs, people on benefits etc SHOULD be subsidised.)

Get rid of the shirkers.
Nurses and NHS staff have a brilliant PR, they’re all angel and in the vast majority of cases it’s well earned and deserved, however there is a number, l don’t know the figure but used to quote the bottom 10%, who are a disgrace, they piggyback on the goodwill of others while dragging them down.

Staff and that includes doctors and cleaners, who go on long term sick, on full pay of course then flaunt on Facebook their family day trip to Alton Towers and the like or nurses with 10 years experience who can’t take blood so someone has to cover - imagine being a HGV driver for 10 years then telling your boss you can’t couple your unit to a trailer, you wouldn’t get to sit in the cab while somebody else did it for you, you’d be sacked because you’re not fit for purpose and rightly so.

I know that there is a shortage of staff so it sounds wrong to suggest sack 10% of the existing but I genuinely believe the 90% remaining would achieve more and find the workload easier if they were all worthy of their PR.

There’s lots more but to be honest it would take up that much space I doubt anyone would read it all, but nurses want to nurse not complete paperwork about what they should be doing and the NHS has massive spending power so why are they paying more for paracetamol than you or I do ? McDonald’s ensures all it’s outlets gets the same supplies, at a good price and on time, every day, the NHS should be able to do the same.

[santiagoterrier]

Mar 30, 2022 23:23:25 GMT captslapper said:

Do you pay an equivalent of national insurance on top of your income tax in Spain Mel?

I notice Spanish VAT is slightly more than ours at 21%.

Death and taxes, as the saying goes.

From tomorrow and until the end of June petrol and diesel for everyone, public and business alike is to be reduced by 0.20€ per litre, a combination of Government tax cut and the petrol companies being forced to reduce their charge, the U.K. announced a 5p cut but I know many garages didn’t act on it. There’s also reductions coming for the cost of electric and gas here in Spain while the U.K. used to say we can’t reduce the tax because of the E.U. rules but despite Brexit they still remain the same.

[foxtrot777]

Dreadful watching the news last night seeing all those parents and listening to their tales of shocking treatment.
My wife worked for the NHS in admin for 13 years so I've been well aware of problems behind the scenes for some time, the new IT system they cancelled a few years back because it didn't work cost almost 10 billion but there's loads of small waste that never gets reported.
Recently I've seen the good and bad on the front line, for the first time in my mother in laws 90 years she's needed help , some of the care she's had has been brilliant but there's a couple of nurses who have visited her are quite frankly horrible. I get adult social care is understaffed and they are probably over worked but I think she deserves better.
I agree something needs to change, certainly recruitment needs to be stepped up and pay needs to be increased to attract the right people, if we want a fantastic NHS then we need to invest more but cut out the waste .
Interesting on last night's report that nobody was named, have the bosses been allowed to retire early on a full pension ? Bosses on large salaries should be accountable.

[foxtrot777]

Mar 30, 2022 20:17:36 GMT El Mel said:

Mar 30, 2022 11:42:24 GMT sabre said:

I agree it needs a complete over haul if not more.

I’d be interested to hear how much Mel pays for the (v.good) Spanish health system.

As i'm self employed mate, known as "Autonomo" here, I pay just over 300 euros a month for the equivalant of what is the Social Security payment in the Uk - which was about 8 quid a month when I left there. That entitles me to healthcare, as well as all the family, and I'll also be eligible for a Spanish pension if I contribute for 15 years.
In terms of my self employment, I probably pay about 1000 euros a month in total to the tax office - it's way more than I'd pay in the Uk for a similar income.

If you want good healtcare, roads, public services, then they have to be paid for unfortunately.

Do we do that here ? Seems fair enough.

[captslapper]

Mar 31, 2022 8:04:40 GMT santiagoterrier said:

Speaking as someone whose wife was an NHS nurse, in my opinion there are several ways to make big improvements to the NHS and none of them would cost money on the contrary they would create savings, however when it was formed in 1948 it was treating 50 Million people with a life expectancy of 66 years, nowadays it’s 70 Million people with a life expectancy of 81 years and some of the drugs and treatments routinely used cost far more than it was ever envisaged at the start.

Scrap League Tables.
I genuinely believe they cause more harm than good, in theory they are a good idea but in practice they make things worse and not just NHS but police, schools and the rest, they simply result in authorities coming up with schemes to massage them rather than make genuine improvements.

For example Hospital “A” is low down in the league table for patients being seen when attending A&E, their solution is make sure everyone is booked in by a nurse within 30 minutes of attending, not actually given any treatment, that will have to wait for another hour or more but your position in the league table rises towards the top because everyone is seen within the time limits.

Address the “NHS is free culture”
Of course it’s not free, but too many people believe that it is because they don’t pay at the point of use and as a result their attitude is the same as attending a works Christmas party with a free bar, normally they would have half a mild but because it’s free they have a double brandy and don’t drink all of it.

We constantly hear of people not attending doctors appointments, that figure would reduce if there was a penalty, also for example why should everyone be fed and watered for free while an inpatient ? If you’re 35, employed with an above average wage you would be paying to eat while you’re at home, why not continue to do so while in hospital (and of course children, OAPs, people on benefits etc SHOULD be subsidised.)

Get rid of the shirkers.
Nurses and NHS staff have a brilliant PR, they’re all angel and in the vast majority of cases it’s well earned and deserved, however there is a number, l don’t know the figure but used to quote the bottom 10%, who are a disgrace, they piggyback on the goodwill of others while dragging them down.

Staff and that includes doctors and cleaners, who go on long term sick, on full pay of course then flaunt on Facebook their family day trip to Alton Towers and the like or nurses with 10 years experience who can’t take blood so someone has to cover - imagine being a HGV driver for 10 years then telling your boss you can’t couple your unit to a trailer, you wouldn’t get to sit in the cab while somebody else did it for you, you’d be sacked because you’re not fit for purpose and rightly so.

I know that there is a shortage of staff so it sounds wrong to suggest sack 10% of the existing but I genuinely believe the 90% remaining would achieve more and find the workload easier if they were all worthy of their PR.

There’s lots more but to be honest it would take up that much space I doubt anyone would read it all, but nurses want to nurse not complete paperwork about what they should be doing and the NHS has massive spending power so why are they paying more for paracetamol than you or I do ? McDonald’s ensures all it’s outlets gets the same supplies, at a good price and on time, every day, the NHS should be able to do the same.

Everyone I know who works for the NHS would say the same thing. That there seems to be a stark contrast between the genuine angels of the public perception ( of which there are so many ) and those that play on that and abuse it, doing as little to justify it as they can get away with.

Remember seeing the stats for long covid. An ailment thats very broad and is almost entirely self-diagnosed.
The effects should be pretty even throughout society, just as the spread of covid was, but perhaps not unsurprisingly the most effected groups from long covid were public sector workers.
Safe in their jobs and extremely confident their employer will support their absence for however long they like.
And out of public sector workers, NHS staff were the worst effected ( by some way I think ).
Guess these are the people you are referring to. The ones who at a time of great strain for the NHS, would rather sit on their backsides at home for 6 months under the guise of 'tiredness' whilst the genuine angels struggle on. 
( Im not suggesting every such case is bogus, but we all know plenty will be )

This idea that health care is free at the point of use is utterly bogus anyway. It depends what health care you require.
People pay to see the dentist, the optician, the chiropodist, physios, etc  and whilst these services might be available on the NHS, actually accessing it for most is less likely than finding Putin at Boris's next No 10 party.
And we ( the bulk of people ) pay for prescriptions.

So the reality is a lot of it isn't free at the point of access. And during the past couple of years due to the way the NHS literally abandoned millions of people to their fate unless they had covid, many people who can't really afford to will have been forced to seek private consultations at great cost.

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2022 8:13:35 GMT santiagoterrier said:

Mar 30, 2022 23:23:25 GMT captslapper said:

Do you pay an equivalent of national insurance on top of your income tax in Spain Mel?

I notice Spanish VAT is slightly more than ours at 21%.

Death and taxes, as the saying goes.

From tomorrow and until the end of June petrol and diesel for everyone, public and business alike is to be reduced by 0.20€ per litre, a combination of Government tax cut and the petrol companies being forced to reduce their charge, the U.K. announced a 5p cut but I know many garages didn’t act on it. There’s also reductions coming for the cost of electric and gas here in Spain while the U.K. used to say we can’t reduce the tax because of the E.U. rules but despite Brexit they still remain the same.

UK petrol stations all did act on the 5p reduction in fuel duty and reduce what goes in to their tax pot to government per litre.

I think what you're saying, is that some UK petrol stations profiteered by effectively increasing or maintaining the consumer price of fuel, despite the cut.


An interesting factor is that VAT goes on top of the WHOLE amount (so we take the fuel duty hit, and then 20% is added to that (as well as the rest of the cost to us)) so its a tax upon a tax (which is why they call it a duty, to avoid that whole wormhole))...so 20% added to a smaller amount means that not only does the fuel duty reduce by 5p, but the VAT overall should shrink...so the reduction at the pump should be MORE than 5p, given the same wholesale / bio content / delivery & margin.

Of course, the complication is the wholesale buying price and everything else is continually changing.


Locally, I took an extract from PetrolPricesUK, on the morning of the day when the duty cut was accounted. All the local supermarkets were reporting on that site with a price of around 5p lower when I checked again late that evening....Esso, Shell and BP didn't reduce prices at all, but seemed to drop by 2p or so in the following couple of days. Texaco prices went UP.

The supermarkets have maintained a relatively static price over the last week at about 155p/l, except ASDA (who in Huddersfield are relatively distanced from any other supermarkets or service stations), who are back up around the 159p level.

[santiagoterrier]

Mar 31, 2022 8:50:53 GMT @ennius said:

Mar 31, 2022 8:13:35 GMT santiagoterrier said:

From tomorrow and until the end of June petrol and diesel for everyone, public and business alike is to be reduced by 0.20€ per litre, a combination of Government tax cut and the petrol companies being forced to reduce their charge, the U.K. announced a 5p cut but I know many garages didn’t act on it. There’s also reductions coming for the cost of electric and gas here in Spain while the U.K. used to say we can’t reduce the tax because of the E.U. rules but despite Brexit they still remain the same.

UK petrol stations all did act on the 5p reduction in fuel duty and reduce what goes in to their tax pot to government per litre.

I think what you're saying, is that some UK petrol stations profiteered by effectively increasing or maintaining the consumer price of fuel, despite the cut.


An interesting factor is that VAT goes on top of the WHOLE amount (so we take the fuel duty hit, and then 20% is added to that (as well as the rest of the cost to us)) so its a tax upon a tax (which is why they call it a duty, to avoid that whole wormhole))...so 20% added to a smaller amount means that not only does the fuel duty reduce by 5p, but the VAT overall should shrink...so the reduction at the pump should be MORE than 5p, given the same wholesale / bio content / delivery & margin.

Of course, the complication is the wholesale buying price and everything else is continually changing.


Locally, I took an extract from PetrolPricesUK, on the morning of the day when the duty cut was accounted. All the local supermarkets were reporting on that site with a price of around 5p lower when I checked again late that evening....Esso, Shell and BP didn't reduce prices at all, but seemed to drop by 2p or so in the following couple of days. Texaco prices went UP.

The supermarkets have maintained a relatively static price over the last week at about 155p/l, except ASDA (who in Huddersfield are relatively distanced from any other supermarkets or service stations), who are back up around the 159p level.

The cut was due to start at 6pm, listening to the radio the following couple of days people were naming and shaming garages that still hadn’t reduced prices and it was also pointed out, as you stated, the 5p should actually be 6p to the customer with VAT. 

However, the general public in Spain and the U.K.as a rule don’t do themselves any favours, within a 1mile radius of my house there are more than 10 filling stations and the prices, long before Ukraine, vary by 0.20€ and more but as long as the expensive ones get customers why should they reduce ?

In the U.K. the motorway services are routinely far more expensive than other outlets, if you are forced to get fuel at expensive rates then just do enough to get you back to a cheaper one, but lots of people don’t bother, which keeps the problem going.

PS fuel in Spain is in general a bit cheaper than the U.K., but I took my neighbour who is from Holland, to the airport last month, she said it was around 2.20€ / £1.85 and two weeks later on her return it was 2.50€ / £2.11.

[santiagoterrier]

Mar 31, 2022 8:42:50 GMT captslapper said:

Mar 31, 2022 8:04:40 GMT santiagoterrier said:

Speaking as someone whose wife was an NHS nurse, in my opinion there are several ways to make big improvements to the NHS and none of them would cost money on the contrary they would create savings, however when it was formed in 1948 it was treating 50 Million people with a life expectancy of 66 years, nowadays it’s 70 Million people with a life expectancy of 81 years and some of the drugs and treatments routinely used cost far more than it was ever envisaged at the start.

Scrap League Tables.
I genuinely believe they cause more harm than good, in theory they are a good idea but in practice they make things worse and not just NHS but police, schools and the rest, they simply result in authorities coming up with schemes to massage them rather than make genuine improvements.

For example Hospital “A” is low down in the league table for patients being seen when attending A&E, their solution is make sure everyone is booked in by a nurse within 30 minutes of attending, not actually given any treatment, that will have to wait for another hour or more but your position in the league table rises towards the top because everyone is seen within the time limits.

Address the “NHS is free culture”
Of course it’s not free, but too many people believe that it is because they don’t pay at the point of use and as a result their attitude is the same as attending a works Christmas party with a free bar, normally they would have half a mild but because it’s free they have a double brandy and don’t drink all of it.

We constantly hear of people not attending doctors appointments, that figure would reduce if there was a penalty, also for example why should everyone be fed and watered for free while an inpatient ? If you’re 35, employed with an above average wage you would be paying to eat while you’re at home, why not continue to do so while in hospital (and of course children, OAPs, people on benefits etc SHOULD be subsidised.)

Get rid of the shirkers.
Nurses and NHS staff have a brilliant PR, they’re all angel and in the vast majority of cases it’s well earned and deserved, however there is a number, l don’t know the figure but used to quote the bottom 10%, who are a disgrace, they piggyback on the goodwill of others while dragging them down.

Staff and that includes doctors and cleaners, who go on long term sick, on full pay of course then flaunt on Facebook their family day trip to Alton Towers and the like or nurses with 10 years experience who can’t take blood so someone has to cover - imagine being a HGV driver for 10 years then telling your boss you can’t couple your unit to a trailer, you wouldn’t get to sit in the cab while somebody else did it for you, you’d be sacked because you’re not fit for purpose and rightly so.

I know that there is a shortage of staff so it sounds wrong to suggest sack 10% of the existing but I genuinely believe the 90% remaining would achieve more and find the workload easier if they were all worthy of their PR.

There’s lots more but to be honest it would take up that much space I doubt anyone would read it all, but nurses want to nurse not complete paperwork about what they should be doing and the NHS has massive spending power so why are they paying more for paracetamol than you or I do ? McDonald’s ensures all it’s outlets gets the same supplies, at a good price and on time, every day, the NHS should be able to do the same.

Everyone I know who works for the NHS would say the same thing. That there seems to be a stark contrast between the genuine angels of the public perception ( of which there are so many ) and those that play on that and abuse it, doing as little to justify it as they can get away with.

Remember seeing the stats for long covid. An ailment thats very broad and is almost entirely self-diagnosed.
The effects should be pretty even throughout society, just as the spread of covid was, but perhaps not unsurprisingly the most effected groups from long covid were public sector workers.
Safe in their jobs and extremely confident their employer will support their absence for however long they like.
And out of public sector workers, NHS staff were the worst effected ( by some way I think ).
Guess these are the people you are referring to. The ones who at a time of great strain for the NHS, would rather sit on their backsides at home for 6 months under the guise of 'tiredness' whilst the genuine angels struggle on. 
( Im not suggesting every such case is bogus, but we all know plenty will be )

This idea that health care is free at the point of use is utterly bogus anyway. It depends what health care you require.
People pay to see the dentist, the optician, the chiropodist, physios, etc  and whilst these services might be available on the NHS, actually accessing it for most is less likely than finding Putin at Boris's next No 10 party.
And we ( the bulk of people ) pay for prescriptions.

So the reality is a lot of it isn't free at the point of access. And during the past couple of years due to the way the NHS literally abandoned millions of people to their fate unless they had covid, many people who can't really afford to will have been forced to seek private consultations at great cost.

COVID wasn’t the cause of the problem with shirkers but it certainly provided a new excuse to many and sadly the more people get away with it then the more decent, hardworking staff see it and start to think I’m might as well have a couple of weeks off, I’m no better thought of for doing my best.

One thing I did notice into the Covid lockdown, I broke my finger and went to A&E at 10am on a Tuesday - I was seen, x rayed and given a finger splint and in the car back home within an hour ! Normally it would have been 2 or 3, so I guess everyone with a splinter or who needed a paracetamol were staying away and A&E was being used how it was meant to be. Sadly of course on the other side of the coin thousands of people who should have been seen for serious and life threatening illness would have been put off and delayed again because of Covid.

[captslapper]

With no amateur sport or pubs being open and a lot less driving going on, then A&E will have been quieter than its ever been during the lockdowns I would imagine.
Probably an ideal time to break a finger if youre going to.