Dean speaks...and return of Q&A's....

[Deleted]

Q&A's likely resuming from October (good timing, get past the end of the transfer window, early establishment of what 2022/23 looks like in terms of league standing should be settling down, maybe ownership transfer confirmed (although that doesnt really seem to have much impact, Dean is effectively the top man at the club now anyway)).

Takeaways - Ownership change still not satisfied, delays with FCA etc...but from what he says just seems like general delay, rather than any problems in agreeing a deal with Phil.
He says he's put in a 8 figure sum since returning, to cover ongoing costs and legacy creditors.

And then italic text below the "---", I've bolded a few items.

Its not my money, but a likely run rate of putting in £5m per season seems to be a reasonable place for a competitive club to be at, compared to some of the financial horror stories we hear in this division. And - seems to indicate that whilst we are a trading club, we don't necessarily have an *immediate* need to sell a player for £10m every season just to maintain that level of shareholder investment, which is a good thing - things seem on a relatively stable footing for at least the next 3 or 4 years.

The final bullet point, the implication is that all monies repaid to Dean after promotion, have effectively been pumped back into the club by Dean?

---

Without any player trading, the Club – with its current wage bill – stands to lose circa £10 million per season. That figure has gone up since I was last 100% owner and the Club was in the Championship because of the additional staffing, resource, and general Premier League-standard setup at the Millers Oils High Performance Complex. I have no issue with that at all, because we’ve seen the benefit of it on the pitch.

There are different options to mitigate that loss. We could increase prices of items such as Season Cards, we could reduce the wage bill or reduce the costs of the First Team provision at the training ground.

However, I’ve decided not to take any of those options because we don’t want to reduce ‘bums on seats’ and we want to be as competitive as possible on the pitch. In order to be as competitive as we saw last season with a low wage bill, we have to maintain the support structure, staffing and wider support network at the training ground and the increased costs that brings. That all goes hand-in-hand. This is our model.

As a result, we must mitigate those costs by trading players. We already had guaranteed money coming in over the next four years from the sale of Karlan Grant, and now we have additional funds over the same period from the sales of Lewis O’Brien and Harry Toffolo. That will take the Club’s annual losses down to around £5 million per season over the next four years, without any further sales or incoming transfers.

Without any further player trading, that is the amount I must put into the Club. When that money needs to be put in during the season is always fluid, and dependent on our cash flow, but that will be the final figure.

I want to be very clear with this next point – the idea that we sell players only to reduce the level of my loans is totally incorrect. The level of my loans today is the same as the season before we gained promotion to the Premier League, which is not an insignificant sum.

As an owner, this is my duty to the Club - and my will to do so.

--

[foxtrot777]

Interesting stuff and good to have some communication from DH about the financial side of the club, great timing as well just before the season starts. The sale of Toffolo/O'Brien paid over 4 years makes sense when you are losing £10 million a year. Hoyle has taken plenty of flak since he took over from Phil but who else would put that type of money into a championship club that doesn't own it's own ground ? I wonder if the people who abuse him on DATM will turn up at the Q&A's

[niggled]

He's put in an eight figure sum for costs and legacy creditors. Isn't he the biggest creditor ?. If he had not stepped in when Phil's business collapsed and the club went into administration would he not have lost all his money . If he is owed £40 million and admin paid 10p in the pound he would have lost it . Stepping in to save the club or save his missing millions.

[foxtrot777]

Jul 26, 2022 15:32:50 GMT niggled said:

He's put in an eight figure sum for costs and legacy creditors. Isn't he the biggest creditor ?. If he had not stepped in when Phil's business collapsed and the club went into administration would he not have lost all his money . If he is owed £40 million and admin paid 10p in the pound he would have lost it . Stepping in to save the club or save his missing millions.

Both I would say but you have to ask who else was going to step in ?

[niggled]

Jul 27, 2022 7:44:23 GMT foxtrot777 said:

Jul 26, 2022 15:32:50 GMT niggled said:

He's put in an eight figure sum for costs and legacy creditors. Isn't he the biggest creditor ?. If he had not stepped in when Phil's business collapsed and the club went into administration would he not have lost all his money . If he is owed £40 million and admin paid 10p in the pound he would have lost it . Stepping in to save the club or save his missing millions.

Both I would say but you have to ask who else was going to step in ?

I,m not aware of anyone willing to step in , we may well have been facing administration. Yet only 5 years earlier we  had money beyond the club's wildest dreams.  That money was wasted on the whole by people running the club , not just Dean as he was seriously ill.  
The decision to appoint Julian winter was made by Dean , winter oversaw a lot of money wasting .
I've wasted loads of money in the past , can I have it back please. Of course not .

[Deleted]

Jul 27, 2022 14:06:54 GMT niggled said:

Jul 27, 2022 7:44:23 GMT foxtrot777 said:

Both I would say but you have to ask who else was going to step in ?

I,m not aware of anyone willing to step in , we may well have been facing administration. Yet only 5 years earlier we  had money beyond the club's wildest dreams.  That money was wasted on the whole by people running the club , not just Dean as he was seriously ill.  
The decision to appoint Julian winter was made by Dean , winter oversaw a lot of money wasting .
I've wasted loads of money in the past , can I have it back please. Of course not .

That "money beyond the clubs wildest dreams" was only in terms of turnover though - the pre tax profit on the second season was something like £4m.

For a club like Town, its a sharp balancing act based on buying and selling players whether you're in the PL or the Championship.

[niggled]

I fully accept that we are a buying and selling club , the best players will always have to be sold to balance the books .
The bit that grates with me is the money was spunked up the wall by bad decisions, yet it has to be paid back. The main beneficiary by not entering admin seems to be the white knight himself.

[Deleted]

Jul 27, 2022 15:32:34 GMT niggled said:

I fully accept that we are a buying and selling club , the best players will always have to be sold to balance the books .
The bit that grates with me is the money was spunked up the wall by bad decisions, yet it has to be paid back. The main beneficiary by not entering admin seems to be the white knight himself.

But it only gets paid back when the club can do so without putting the club at risk...which is what is always expected surely?

Prior to getting to the PL, Dean stated he never *expected* to get repaid either in full or to a lesser degree. We got promoted, so that ability of the club to start to repay changed, and quite rightly, the debt was started to be reduced.

What he's saying in that statement is that more or less everything that was repaid to him during the PL seasons has ended up back in the club "The level of my loans today is the same as the season before we gained promotion to the Premier League"...and he's expecting to put in circa £5m more a season for at least the next 4 seasons - thats hardly the behaviour of someone that deserves to be denigrated?

As he handed over to Phil, he negotiated a favourable deal for the club to continue to repay, based on an expected ability to be able to continue to repay (backed by Phil, who assumedly had some grand ideas about how he would be able to raise profitability, and didnt have plans for his businesses to collapse around his ankles in the meantime) - and those repayment schedules were updated as things changed.

I'm sure if we happen to get promoted this season or next, or he happens to sell the club on again, then the expectation that there will be some level of repayment made will float again, and quite rightly.

I think a big challenge is a big proportion of our fans don't seem to understand what 'expectation' means, and don't understand that whats planned or expected can change in the blink of an eye be that as a result of promotion to the Premier League, relegation to League 1, a global pandemic removing revenue streams, footballers deciding they would like to be paid more, here or elsewhere, etc etc etc...

It is what it is, he's not obviously screwed the club over - if anything, his behaviour is that he's cared TOO MUCH as a fan. The next ownership transfer will be the interesting one.

[niggled]

The level of debt is the same as before promotion? It shouldn't be . We have wasted circa £200 million. The man who was in charge for a large period of that time is still owed 30 to 40 million . What's the fukin point in seeking promotion. Dean has undeniably been wonderful for us in the past but no one seems accountable for wasting the millions that should have stabilised this club for years.
I'm not seeking to argue but it grates with me that we only get dean's version of events and something's not ringing true to me.
Roll on Friday

[Deleted]

Maybe ask him a well framed question at an upcoming Q&A if you have any doubts.
The accounts are all available and set out exactly where the expenditure mounted up.

And for context on how unlikely it is for clubs to do anything other than lose money and rely on shareholder loans in the PL, this thread from last December is an eye watering read...

Roll on Friday indeed!

[captslapper]

Jul 27, 2022 18:42:03 GMT niggled said:

The level of debt is the same as before promotion? It shouldn't be . We have wasted circa £200 million. The man who was in charge for a large period of that time is still owed 30 to 40 million . What's the fukin point in seeking promotion. Dean has undeniably been wonderful for us in the past but no one seems accountable for wasting the millions that should have stabilised this club for years.
I'm not seeking to argue but it grates with me that we only get dean's version of events and something's not ringing true to me.
Roll on Friday

If a clubs owner should carry the can ( ie pay for it out of his own money ) when signings go wrong.. then presumably an owner should be able to take the profits on players when they go right.. ie sell a player and pocket all the profit?

Hoyle didnt choose any of the signings in that summer of 2018.. he just backed his manager and the recruitment team that had performed so well in the previous years to the point we not only got promoted to the PL but managed to stay there.

In hindsight he should have known they were about to blow about £60m on players who's value would fall off a cliff to the point they'd be worth about £3m between them.

But he didnt have the luxury of hindsight and I imagine, much like all the fans, he was excited about signing Kingolo.. a Dutch international who'd excelled here on loan...and a lad who'd just made 30 appearances for Monaco in the French league and Champions league... and a lad who's a Belgium U21 international ...and the Swiss international...and the Egyptian international...the lad who was regarded as one of the best players in the championship...etc etc

People who'd been getting it very right, suddenly got it very wrong... and our PL legacy went up in smoke. Nobody meant for it to happen and I doubt anyone, even in their worst case scenarios could have imagined that every single one of those expensive signings would be such a calamitous failure they wouldn't have any sell on value.
I imagine the plan would have been to re-coup most if not all their transfer fees should we go down by selling them on.. but that wasnt an option as it turned out on account of them all being dog shit.

It is what it is.. people need to move on and trust that if we ever go upon again, lessons will have been learned.
But remember, the debt to DH is approximately ONE TENTH of the extra money our PL adventure brought into the club... money that only came into the club because of DH's financial backing in the first place.
He really doesnt owe HTFC anything, particularly not money.

[niggled]

Jul 27, 2022 23:32:26 GMT captslapper said:

Jul 27, 2022 18:42:03 GMT niggled said:

The level of debt is the same as before promotion? It shouldn't be . We have wasted circa £200 million. The man who was in charge for a large period of that time is still owed 30 to 40 million . What's the fukin point in seeking promotion. Dean has undeniably been wonderful for us in the past but no one seems accountable for wasting the millions that should have stabilised this club for years.
I'm not seeking to argue but it grates with me that we only get dean's version of events and something's not ringing true to me.
Roll on Friday

If a clubs owner should carry the can ( ie pay for it out of his own money ) when signings go wrong.. then presumably an owner should be able to take the profits on players when they go right.. ie sell a player and pocket all the profit?

Hoyle didnt choose any of the signings in that summer of 2018.. he just backed his manager and the recruitment team that had performed so well in the previous years to the point we not only got promoted to the PL but managed to stay there.

In hindsight he should have known they were about to blow about £60m on players who's value would fall off a cliff to the point they'd be worth about £3m between them.

But he didnt have the luxury of hindsight and I imagine, much like all the fans, he was excited about signing Kingolo.. a Dutch international who'd excelled here on loan...and a lad who'd just made 30 appearances for Monaco in the French league and Champions league... and a lad who's a Belgium U21 international ...and the Swiss international...and the Egyptian international...the lad who was regarded as one of the best players in the championship...etc etc

People who'd been getting it very right, suddenly got it very wrong... and our PL legacy went up in smoke. Nobody meant for it to happen and I doubt anyone, even in their worst case scenarios could have imagined that every single one of those expensive signings would be such a calamitous failure they wouldn't have any sell on value.
I imagine the plan would have been to re-coup most if not all their transfer fees should we go down by selling them on.. but that wasnt an option as it turned out on account of them all being dog shit.

It is what it is.. people need to move on and trust that if we ever go upon again, lessons will have been learned.
But remember, the debt to DH is approximately ONE TENTH of the extra money our PL adventure brought into the club... money that only came into the club because of DH's financial backing in the first place.
He really doesnt owe HTFC anything, particularly not money.

I think we are getting a bit off track here , it's all hypothetical anyway as Dean can do what he likes. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing and we all hope lessons are learnt. 
My original post was just querying what Dean said about putting money in to pay ' legacy creditors '.  He's the biggest legacy creditors isn't he ?. So  he's putting money in to protect his money.

[Deleted]

Jul 28, 2022 15:27:26 GMT niggled said:

Jul 27, 2022 23:32:26 GMT captslapper said:

If a clubs owner should carry the can ( ie pay for it out of his own money ) when signings go wrong.. then presumably an owner should be able to take the profits on players when they go right.. ie sell a player and pocket all the profit?

Hoyle didnt choose any of the signings in that summer of 2018.. he just backed his manager and the recruitment team that had performed so well in the previous years to the point we not only got promoted to the PL but managed to stay there.

In hindsight he should have known they were about to blow about £60m on players who's value would fall off a cliff to the point they'd be worth about £3m between them.

But he didnt have the luxury of hindsight and I imagine, much like all the fans, he was excited about signing Kingolo.. a Dutch international who'd excelled here on loan...and a lad who'd just made 30 appearances for Monaco in the French league and Champions league... and a lad who's a Belgium U21 international ...and the Swiss international...and the Egyptian international...the lad who was regarded as one of the best players in the championship...etc etc

People who'd been getting it very right, suddenly got it very wrong... and our PL legacy went up in smoke. Nobody meant for it to happen and I doubt anyone, even in their worst case scenarios could have imagined that every single one of those expensive signings would be such a calamitous failure they wouldn't have any sell on value.
I imagine the plan would have been to re-coup most if not all their transfer fees should we go down by selling them on.. but that wasnt an option as it turned out on account of them all being dog shit.

It is what it is.. people need to move on and trust that if we ever go upon again, lessons will have been learned.
But remember, the debt to DH is approximately ONE TENTH of the extra money our PL adventure brought into the club... money that only came into the club because of DH's financial backing in the first place.
He really doesnt owe HTFC anything, particularly not money.

I think we are getting a bit off track here , it's all hypothetical anyway as Dean can do what he likes. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing and we all hope lessons are learnt. 
My original post was just querying what Dean said about putting money in to pay ' legacy creditors '.  He's the biggest legacy creditors isn't he ?. So  he's putting money in to protect his money.

He's the biggest creditor, but I think by referring to paying legacy creditors, he was talking about satisfying £30m+ worth of short term bank debt that was taken out that was effectively forward funding of parachute payments to ease cash flow in the club, and was/is attracting interest fees alone of £3m+ a year.