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Post by Deep Space on Feb 8, 2022 19:56:46 GMT
I certainly agree that we should give comedians more of a licence to kill than politicians for obvious reasons, but do you think that, let's call it extreme free speech, should be legitimised in some or any contexts? Does being on stage give you a free pass about all issues anytime or do you have your personal boundaries that you think shouldn't be crossed? I think a lot of the big names like Carr thought they were immune from cancel culture. Perhaps they now regret not speaking out sooner when Mark Meechan of Nazi pug fame was dragged through the courts. Ricki Gervais was one of the few who did. The Woke mob are now emboldened and hungry for new targets. I guess I'd ask the same question here. Do you think free speech has no limits ever, under any circumstances? If not, what are your boundaries? |
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Post by tinpot on Feb 8, 2022 20:15:22 GMT
For me, I would have incitment to commit a crime as a boundary. Not a lot else. Certainly not telling jokes that have an ambiguous meaning, and context absolutely SHOULD matter.
Incitement to hate is a difficult one - and it seems the law has prescrbed which sections of society it's ok to aim hatred at & which it isn't. An unsatisfactory solution in my view but I'm not sure where the line should be drawn either TBF.
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Post by captslapper on Feb 8, 2022 20:18:51 GMT
The boundaries are in the context and the intent surely?
Should a comedian be able to say anything they choose to?
probably yeah.. if the context and the intent are what they clearly were in this Jimmy Carr case... ie it clearly isn't either something they actually think or something they are trying to get other people to think.
If its unacceptable, then the public will decide and the comedians career will go tits up.
I actually find the attempts to cancel him for this WAY more offensive than what he said. The context of one is far more sinister and dangerous than the other's.
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Feb 8, 2022 20:25:19 GMT
The problem is the boundaries are shifting and being driven to the WOKE side at an alarming rate, by a gobby minority who make a competition out of seeing how much virtue they can signal.
Unfortunately the bulk of the media is also littered with them and censors content to appease this minority.
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Post by Deep Space on Feb 8, 2022 20:55:46 GMT
For me, I would have incitment to commit a crime as a boundary. Not a lot else. Certainly not telling jokes that have an ambiguous meaning, and context absolutely SHOULD matter. Incitement to hate is a difficult one - and it seems the law has prescrbed which sections of society it's ok to aim hatred at & which it isn't. An unsatisfactory solution in my view but I'm not sure where the line should be drawn either TBF. OK, so in my time I've heard plenty of jokes portraying rape as humourous. Is that OK? |
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Post by tinpot on Feb 8, 2022 21:02:44 GMT
For me, I would have incitment to commit a crime as a boundary. Not a lot else. Certainly not telling jokes that have an ambiguous meaning, and context absolutely SHOULD matter. Incitement to hate is a difficult one - and it seems the law has prescrbed which sections of society it's ok to aim hatred at & which it isn't. An unsatisfactory solution in my view but I'm not sure where the line should be drawn either TBF. OK, so in my time I've heard plenty of jokes portraying rape as humourous. Is that OK? It would depend on the joke whether I thought it was acceptable (& if not, what should be done about it). |
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Post by Deep Space on Feb 8, 2022 21:11:44 GMT
OK, so in my time I've heard plenty of jokes portraying rape as humourous. Is that OK? It would depend on the joke whether I thought it was acceptable (& if not, what should be done about it). Yes, I think that's what I'm trying to get at really. In years gone by, rape jokes were fairly commonplace by & large, but I imagine if you were a rape victim you were probably offended by them. Probably more than offended in truth. Hence, whilst I'm not disputing that there's a spectrum here & obviously rape is an extreme end of it, the bottom line is that if you or perhaps people you love or knew have been victims of the butt of the joke (& frankly I'd say genocide is at the same end of that spectrum) then there does come a point surely when that joke has crossed a line of decency? |
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Post by captslapper on Feb 8, 2022 21:28:49 GMT
that rules out pretty much every joke though doesnt it?
If its unacceptable because someone might be offended by it?
But I think youre missing the point anyway.
if a comedian stands there and tells a joke around male impotence, then chances are he's actually mocking male impotence.
Thats actually worse in a way than Carr's gag about the gypsies in the holocaust because he wasn't actually laughing at that.. he was laughing at people discomfort with their own prejudices -- ie; they hate gypsies, but are being asked to laugh at them being murdered en masse.
Its all about context and intent.
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Post by Deep Space on Feb 8, 2022 21:37:56 GMT
that rules out pretty much every joke though doesnt it? If its unacceptable because someone might be offended by it? But I think youre missing the point anyway. if a comedian stands there and tells a joke around male impotence, then chances are he's actually mocking male impotence. Thats actually worse in a way than Carr's gag about the gypsies in the holocaust because he wasn't actually laughing at that.. he was laughing at people discomfort with their own prejudices -- ie; they hate gypsies, but are being asked to laugh at them being murdered en masse. Its all about context and intent.I agree with this, but as I said above, I think there's a spectrum. Some things are edgy but funny; some things you know you shouldn't laugh at but do. I'm not a snowflake by any means on this issue. In fact I deliberately avoided mentioning the Carr joke to try & see if there's a generic principle that we all have a line somewhere that we think shouldn't be crossed, because if we do, then the debate becomes more simply about which side of that line any given joke might fall.
Just to add, I'm not in any way suggesting that he should be cancelled. I don't think anyone should be really by & large. I absolutely worry that free speech and freedom of expression are being eroded beyond reasonable levels in society. But I also think that each of us does have lines that we don't want to see crossed.
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Post by captslapper on Feb 9, 2022 9:59:03 GMT
I imagine for most people, what 'crosses the line' in terms of whats allowed to be funny is a reflection of what relates to their own life.
Gypsies in the holocaust isn't a part of my own life in any way, so for me there was humour in that gag..it made me smirk in a 'thats quite amusing even though I know I shouldn't be laughing at that' way.
Whereas Ive heard jokes about kids dying ( Madeleine McCann for example ) or the Hillsborough and Bradford City tragedies , and because it relates to me and my life quite closely, I just dont want to find any humour in it.
Im not offended by it, as I can understand the context and intent of the gags.. I just dont want to find it funny so dont.
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Post by londontown on Feb 9, 2022 10:18:48 GMT
I think a lot of the big names like Carr thought they were immune from cancel culture. Perhaps they now regret not speaking out sooner when Mark Meechan of Nazi pug fame was dragged through the courts. Ricki Gervais was one of the few who did. The Woke mob are now emboldened and hungry for new targets. I guess I'd ask the same question here. Do you think free speech has no limits ever, under any circumstances? If not, what are your boundaries? Your question appears to have been answered. There are already limits based on incitement to violence and slander. It also depends on context and intent. Carr is a controversialist and a comedian, so most people recognise he did not literally mean that the death of gypsies was a good thing. Attempting to draw subjective boundaries has led to the shit show we now have, with ridiculous hate speech laws and the woke mob repeatedly trying to cancel people. Ironically, they are clearly the ones full of hate. |
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Post by londontown on Feb 9, 2022 10:22:27 GMT
For me, I would have incitment to commit a crime as a boundary. Not a lot else. Certainly not telling jokes that have an ambiguous meaning, and context absolutely SHOULD matter. Incitement to hate is a difficult one - and it seems the law has prescrbed which sections of society it's ok to aim hatred at & which it isn't. An unsatisfactory solution in my view but I'm not sure where the line should be drawn either TBF. OK, so in my time I've heard plenty of jokes portraying rape as humourous. Is that OK? Joking about rape is not making it OK. Most people understand the difference between jokes and reality. Sometimes humour is a coping mechanism, as with jokes about cancer and disease. Sometimes we try to laugh at the shit life throws up. |
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Post by chedtippington on Feb 9, 2022 10:25:34 GMT
Wot about raping babys
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Post by Deep Space on Feb 9, 2022 10:32:00 GMT
I imagine for most people, what 'crosses the line' in terms of whats allowed to be funny is a reflection of what relates to their own life.Gypsies in the holocaust isn't a part of my own life in any way, so for me there was humour in that gag..it made me smirk in a 'thats quite amusing even though I know I shouldn't be laughing at that' way. Whereas Ive heard jokes about kids dying ( Madeleine McCann for example ) or the Hillsborough and Bradford City tragedies , and because it relates to me and my life quite closely, I just dont want to find any humour in it. Im not offended by it, as I can understand the context and intent of the gags.. I just dont want to find it funny so dont. I think that's probably a good way to look at it. My wife suffered some very nasty bullying as a kid because she was from a large Irish family. As an adult, when we were first together, one of my Aunts looked her straight in the eye & said all the Irish should be sent packing then there'd be no more bombings (at this point she'd actually never set foot in Ireland in her life).
I know from her family as well that they always said that, even if a joke might have been funny, or even a grain of truth in it, the perception it created in society that anyone Irish was either stupid, a terrorist, or both, was something they found hurtful at best & a real problem at worst. So in this house, anyone cracks an Irish joke & they are likely to be cancelled fairly swiftly!
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Post by captslapper on Feb 9, 2022 12:08:22 GMT
Bet that was a fun family get together!  |
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