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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 24, 2022 14:31:40 GMT
Theres only one side rattling their sabre here that I can see. As far as I can see, every country but Russia seems to want Russia to invade Ukraine. I see no media coverage of all the NATO and EU Battlegroup troops and hardware we've been amassing on "training exercises" at the Eastern border of the EU for the last decade. |
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Post by realmadkid on Jan 24, 2022 15:28:33 GMT
I see the British Bullshit Corporation have accused Russia of wanting to install a Russian controlled government in Ukraine.
I suppose that would be to replace the current British and American one in place already then eh?
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 24, 2022 15:41:09 GMT
You can understand why Russia wants to keep it's access to the Med for it's naval port, when the EU are basically trying to prise Ukraine into it's empire.
"On top of this, we will soon start work on a second, longer-term MFA programme to support the country’s modernisation efforts and continue to invest in the country’s future thanks to our Investment Plan for Ukraine.
This plan aims to leverage over €6 billion in investments."
Basically the EU is trying to take over Ukraine and blaming Russia for trying to do the same.
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Post by captainblack on Jan 25, 2022 8:15:57 GMT
I love how the press conveniently ignore the massive forces NATO and the EU Battlegroup have been amassing for years, just this side of the Russian border. Every willy waving "training exercise" is done within view of Russia. It benefits no one massing troops on the Ukrainian border, but one spark could result in war in Ukraine. The Russians are bullies and are trying to intimidate the Ukrainian government , they are still in denial over the collapse of the Soviet bloc and would dearly love more influence ln the region , they will do anything to try and destabilise the west . I still believe war is unlikely though , and Russia will want a political settlement which would have the west having less influence in Ukraine. It possibly is just sabre rattling as some have already stated. The training exercises are obviously done on the Russian borders as they are viewed as a threat , It would be pointless holding exercises on the Belgium border , expecting an attack from the Dutch army! |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 25, 2022 9:21:17 GMT
Im struggling to understand why anyone is trying to portray this as anything but Russian aggression.
Ukraine is an indépendant country. If they choose to join the EU or Nato then so be it, its their right to do that.
What does that have to do with Russia? If they dont want to join 'the world' then so be it but they can't dictate what their neighbours do by intimidation and threat.
Russia seems alarmed by the situation around Ukraine because they've chosen to increasingly position themselves as 'the enemy' of the west and Ukraines possible absorption into such things as nato or EU hinders any plans they have to forcibly re-instate the old soviet block that Putin seems to yearn for.
Arguing that this is somehow the fault of the US or UK or Nato or the EU is to me like arguing that declaring war on Germany in 1939 for invading Poland was just Britain trying to expand its empire!
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Post by Deep Space on Jan 25, 2022 9:22:20 GMT
When it comes to geopolitics, I am generally of the view that they are all as bad as each other. There's no doubt in my mind that Russia feels threatened by the West, that Putin has started to feel vulnerable & wants some sort of real or pyrrhic victory to strut around with back in Moscow, nor that the West want Russia back in its box & Russia to keep shovelling cheap gas down the pipeline.
Many moons ago, I read a book called Vodka Cola (by Charle Levinson), which was the best work (albeit not exactly a page-turner) you'll ever read on the Cold War. It showed how what really kept the peace in Europe at that time was the way that all the economies were completely intertwined & even small ripples in the hegemony caused unwanted problems elsewhere. I think that's even more true now than ever before. It is extremely naive though to presume that this is the Good West v. the Bad Russians.
What Russia needs is access to resources, trading routes, export markets, etc. What the West needs is a compliant East delivering cheap raw materials. Politically, what both need is an appearance that the other has backed down. Using an 'ethnic protection' argument is hardly anything new (it's why Hitler authorised the Anschluss (annexation/invasion of Austria) & the invasion of the Sudetenland).
I have absolutely no idea what resources (mineral or industrial) there might be in the obviously contested areas, but I know generally Ukraine was always a critical element of the USSR for various reasons. I doubt if giving a few villages Russian citizenship is going to solve this long-term. It is fundamentally about economic issues & that's where any solution will lie.
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Post by captslapper on Jan 25, 2022 9:27:26 GMT
But does it matter what resources the Ukraine has ? It isn't Russian property anymore. Whatever they have isn't theirs.
Be like UK still claiming ownership of India's resources.
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 25, 2022 9:33:48 GMT
Im struggling to understand why anyone is trying to portray this as anything but Russian aggression. Depends if you believe the propaganda fed by our MSM. What's happening here is the EU, using NATO and it's own EU Battlegroup, is expanding it's empire towards Moscow. The Ukraine is strategically very important to Russia as it gives them Mediterranean access to their naval port. Ukraine is an indépendant country. If they choose to join the EU or Nato then so be it, its their right to do that. What does that have to do with Russia? If they dont want to join 'the world' then so be it but they can't dictate what their neighbours do by intimidation and threat. And how do you feel about Ireland/Northern Ireland? The Ukraine only wants the EU for free handouts, many Ukranian citizens are pro Russian and still see themselves as so. Russia seems alarmed by the situation around Ukraine because they've chosen to increasingly position themselves as 'the enemy' of the west and Ukraines possible absorption into such things as nato or EU hinders any plans they have to forcibly re-instate the old soviet block that Putin seems to yearn for. Arguing that this is somehow the fault of the US or UK or Nato or the EU is to me like arguing that declaring war on Germany in 1939 for invading Poland was just Britain trying to expand its empire! You realise it's the EU expanding it's empire towards Moscow I take it? Where do you get your news from? You might want to consider this, before you join the rest of the MSM in craving Russia to invade. It seems everyone but Russia wants Russia to invade the Ukraine.... We're going to run out of gas and we pay Russia for it, unlike Ukraine half the time. |
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 25, 2022 9:34:36 GMT
But does it matter what resources the Ukraine has ? It isn't Russian property anymore. Whatever they have isn't theirs. Be like UK still claiming ownership of India's resources. Or Northern Ireland's? |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 25, 2022 9:45:41 GMT
Again with the propaganda!!
If the EU simply wanted to expand their empire then they could have welcomed Ukraine in YEARS ago!
Its the Eu that has been stalling on that, not Ukraine ( as you say, its just another negative contributor they can do without ).
If Russia wants access to anything through a neighbouring country then they negotiate it with that country. Act like a serious modern country not some playground bully.
They dont have a right to what isn't theirs!
And so what if Ukraine was in NATO. Lots of countries that border Russia are in NATO.
That isn't a problem unless Russia choses to be the enemy of NATO and they dont have to be.
But Russia has no right to dictate what its neighbours do.
Under Putin Russia is becoming a pariah state. One that operates outside of conventional international law.
More fool the countries like Germany that have allowed themselves to be so reliant on Russian fossil fuels as that arrangement was always likely to be weaponised eventually.
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Post by captslapper on Jan 25, 2022 9:47:20 GMT
But does it matter what resources the Ukraine has ? It isn't Russian property anymore. Whatever they have isn't theirs. Be like UK still claiming ownership of India's resources. Or Northern Ireland's? Northern Ireland is part of the UK. If in the future it isn't, then we wont have any claim over their resources or the right to dictate what they do. |
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 25, 2022 9:49:36 GMT
Again with the propaganda!! If the EU simply wanted to expand their empire then they could have welcomed Ukraine in YEARS ago! Its the Eu that has been stalling on that, not Ukraine ( as you say, its just another negative contributor they can do without ). Give over. If Russia started absorbing Eastern European countries, moving West, at what point would you start worrying? Poland, Germany, Belgium? Because the EU already have taken over countries which border with Russia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_Union#/media/File:EC-EU-enlargement_animation.gif |
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 25, 2022 9:51:28 GMT
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. If in the future it isn't, then we wont have any claim over their resources or the right to dictate what they do. Ah, so that's OK then. Where shall we divide the line for Northern Ukraine and Ukraine? We can allow the Pro Russian Ukranians to move to the North and be part of Russia and the rest can live in the South and be funded by the EU tax payers. You're blissfully ignoring the real story here. A lot of Ukranians are Pro Russian, as in millions. In some areas the democratic majority are Russian. www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/why-war-torn-east-ukraine-votes-for-pro-russian-parties/ |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 25, 2022 9:59:42 GMT
Give over what?
The Ukraine government has ben keen to join th EU for donkeys years.
the only reason they havent has been because of the EU.
Investing in the country to improve it and make it more stable is not the same thing. They probably hope eventually Ukraine will be financially beneficial to the EU, then they'll allow them to join.
What that got to do with Russia?? Its not a 'threat' to them.. its got fuck all to do with them.... other than Russia is so determined to position itself as the enemy of the EU and of NATO.
But you talk as if the EU 'expanding its empire towards Moscow' is like some sort of war game.
You think its the start of the EU plans to roll tanks over the border or something?
How does allowing themselves to be so reliant on Russian gas tally with that theory??
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Post by captslapper on Jan 25, 2022 10:02:45 GMT
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. If in the future it isn't, then we wont have any claim over their resources or the right to dictate what they do. Ah, so that's OK then. Where shall we divide the line for Northern Ukraine and Ukraine? We can allow the Pro Russian Ukranians to move to the North and be part of Russia and the rest can live in the South and be funded by the EU tax payers. You're blissfully ignoring the real story here. A lot of Ukranians are Pro Russian, as in millions. In some areas the democratic majority are Russian. www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/why-war-torn-east-ukraine-votes-for-pro-russian-parties/Im not unaware. But it doesnt matter. IT ISNT PART OF RUSSIA! Its an independent country!! Your comparison to NI is meaningless... NI is not an independent country. |
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