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Post by Deep Space on Jan 25, 2022 22:50:20 GMT
But does it matter what resources the Ukraine has ? It isn't Russian property anymore. Whatever they have isn't theirs. Be like UK still claiming ownership of India's resources. Sorry; not had much chance to respond today & have lost track of the thread a bit, but I think there are differences & similarities in that India doesn't share a border with us, but does have strategic importance in the region. What Britain did to a large degree with our Empire was to keep the former colonies within a sphere of influence (the Commonwealth being the obvious example) to gain trading rights, military bases or other benefits. We use the ethnic argument of course when it suits us (Gibraltar for example) but seem a lot less keen on letting others use it (e.g. Crimea).
Ukraine matters to Russia a lot; possibly for economic reasons but overwhelmingly for strategic reasons & I think the sabre-rattling is fundamentally to draw concessions from the West (Germany is probably already appearing to indicate that they want all this to go away quickly). I think it's also about weakening Western alliances. We are being dragged into a situation where either the alliances such as they are have to thump him & do it hard, or come across all Neville Chamberlain & risk further incursions & risks. |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 25, 2022 23:50:06 GMT
The point is that when India was part of our empire we could take advantage of it resources... but now it isn't we can't.
Well; isn't it the same for Russia and the Ukraine?
Ukraine probably does matter a lot to the Russians for the reasons you state... but it isn't part of Russia, and that doesnt change whether it matters to them or not... unless they try to take it by force.
What I dont get is how them threatening to do that is somehow everyone else's fault.
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Post by Deep Space on Jan 26, 2022 7:54:59 GMT
The point is that when India was part of our empire we could take advantage of it resources... but now it isn't we can't. Well; isn't it the same for Russia and the Ukraine? Ukraine probably does matter a lot to the Russians for the reasons you state... but it isn't part of Russia, and that doesnt change whether it matters to them or not... unless they try to take it by force. What I dont get is how them threatening to do that is somehow everyone else's fault. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing in defence of Russia any more than I'd defend British imperialism. But India did not become a colony, initially anyway, through direct military intervention but as a consequence of trading companies installing their own rulers in return for trading rights. I don't think it's accurate though to say we don't still take advantage of that because what we now need from that part of the world is cheap goods & labour (as opposed to goods such as spices which fuelled early colonisation) and with huge levels of our imports, from clothes to footballs, coming from places like Bangladesh then I'd still class that as exploiting their resources (people if nothing else).
The other parallel from that we could look at is the whole history of the partition of India, which Britain generally opposed in spite of the fact that the resident population of what is now Pakistan/Bangladesh clearly did not want to be governed by Hindus in Delhi. My point here being that the more we look for examples of whether or not countries accept the right of populations to self-determination, the more we see it's just about what suits who & when. Look at Spain. They claim Gibraltar, a theoretically historically strategically important place in spite of 99% or so saying they want to stay British, but deny Catalan independence (economically vital to Spain) where it seems highly likely that in excess of 90% of the population want an independent nation.
So I don't think it's just a simple case of 'bad' Russia wanting to take over 'good' Ukraine whilst the 'good' West tries to stop them. A good case in point here is the one that I made about Germany. They are heavily dependent on Russian gas & (as de facto leaders of the EU) are already blowing cold about any involvement. Rumours suggest that they refuse to allow any planes carrying military aid to fly through their airspace. At the very least, Britain & probably others are avoiding German airspace to avoid any sort of diplomatic row. So their priority would strongly appear to be protecting their gas supply/the price they pay for it over & above concerns for the citizenry of Eastern Ukraine.
My point really is that if you want to understand what's going on, why & how it might ultimately resolve, just follow the money.
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Post by realmadkid on Jan 26, 2022 8:33:08 GMT
The point is that when India was part of our empire we could take advantage of it resources... but now it isn't we can't. Well; isn't it the same for Russia and the Ukraine? Ukraine probably does matter a lot to the Russians for the reasons you state... but it isn't part of Russia, and that doesnt change whether it matters to them or not... unless they try to take it by force. What I dont get is how them threatening to do that is somehow everyone else's fault. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing in defence of Russia any more than I'd defend British imperialism. But India did not become a colony, initially anyway, through direct military intervention but as a consequence of trading companies installing their own rulers in return for trading rights. I don't think it's accurate though to say we don't still take advantage of that because what we now need from that part of the world is cheap goods & labour (as opposed to goods such as spices which fuelled early colonisation) and with huge levels of our imports, from clothes to footballs, coming from places like Bangladesh then I'd still class that as exploiting their resources (people if nothing else).
The other parallel from that we could look at is the whole history of the partition of India, which Britain generally opposed in spite of the fact that the resident population of what is now Pakistan/Bangladesh clearly did not want to be governed by Hindus in Delhi. My point here being that the more we look for examples of whether or not countries accept the right of populations to self-determination, the more we see it's just about what suits who & when. Look at Spain. They claim Gibraltar, a theoretically historically strategically important place in spite of 99% or so saying they want to stay British, but deny Catalan independence (economically vital to Spain) where it seems highly likely that in excess of 90% of the population want an independent nation.
So I don't think it's just a simple case of 'bad' Russia wanting to take over 'good' Ukraine whilst the 'good' West tries to stop them. A good case in point here is the one that I made about Germany. They are heavily dependent on Russian gas & (as de facto leaders of the EU) are already blowing cold about any involvement. Rumours suggest that they refuse to allow any planes carrying military aid to fly through their airspace. At the very least, Britain & probably others are avoiding German airspace to avoid any sort of diplomatic row. So their priority would strongly appear to be protecting their gas supply/the price they pay for it over & above concerns for the citizenry of Eastern Ukraine.
My point really is that if you want to understand what's going on, why & how it might ultimately resolve, just follow the money.
Just about spot on! Good post! |
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 26, 2022 8:48:33 GMT
The point is that when India was part of our empire we could take advantage of it resources... but now it isn't we can't. Well; isn't it the same for Russia and the Ukraine? Ukraine probably does matter a lot to the Russians for the reasons you state... but it isn't part of Russia, and that doesnt change whether it matters to them or not... unless they try to take it by force. What I dont get is how them threatening to do that is somehow everyone else's fault. Russia has more natural resources than it knows what to do with. It's worry about the Federal State of Greater GEUrmany adding Ukraine to it's rapidly Eastward spreading empire, is that it's practically knocking on the Kremlin's door and would create serious national security issues for Russia, as it's Sevastopol Naval port with access to the Med is in an area of the former Ukraine, which after a referendum in 2014, the democratic majority decided to become part of Russia. There are millions of pro Russians in areas of Ukraine and they chose to be part of Russia in this area. The EU are trying to prize it away, even though it contains a Russian strategic naval port. Anyone who can't see the real issue here, needs to step away from MSM. Think of this part as Gibraltar. |
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Post by Deep Space on Jan 26, 2022 10:18:57 GMT
The point is that when India was part of our empire we could take advantage of it resources... but now it isn't we can't. Well; isn't it the same for Russia and the Ukraine? Ukraine probably does matter a lot to the Russians for the reasons you state... but it isn't part of Russia, and that doesnt change whether it matters to them or not... unless they try to take it by force. What I dont get is how them threatening to do that is somehow everyone else's fault. Russia has more natural resources than it knows what to do with. It's worry about the Federal State of Greater GEUrmany adding Ukraine to it's rapidly Eastward spreading empire, is that it's practically knocking on the Kremlin's door and would create serious national security issues for Russia, as it's Sevastopol Naval port with access to the Med is in an area of the former Ukraine, which after a referendum in 2014, the democratic majority decided to become part of Russia. There are millions of pro Russians in areas of Ukraine and they chose to be part of Russia in this area. The EU are trying to prize it away, even though it contains a Russian strategic naval port. Anyone who can't see the real issue here, needs to step away from MSM. Think of this part as Gibraltar. I don't disagree with much of this & herein lies the big clue. Russia has vast reserves of natural resources which for the most part it needs to export. How does it therefore export gas? We know that some of it, a very lucrative part, is via pipelines to Western Europe. Where do these pipelines run? Well, a lot of them run bang underneath Ukraine. So who will Russia want to have control over them? Moscow or NATO? |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 26, 2022 10:41:10 GMT
The point is that when India was part of our empire we could take advantage of it resources... but now it isn't we can't. Well; isn't it the same for Russia and the Ukraine? Ukraine probably does matter a lot to the Russians for the reasons you state... but it isn't part of Russia, and that doesnt change whether it matters to them or not... unless they try to take it by force. What I dont get is how them threatening to do that is somehow everyone else's fault. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing in defence of Russia any more than I'd defend British imperialism. But India did not become a colony, initially anyway, through direct military intervention but as a consequence of trading companies installing their own rulers in return for trading rights. I don't think it's accurate though to say we don't still take advantage of that because what we now need from that part of the world is cheap goods & labour (as opposed to goods such as spices which fuelled early colonisation) and with huge levels of our imports, from clothes to footballs, coming from places like Bangladesh then I'd still class that as exploiting their resources (people if nothing else).
The other parallel from that we could look at is the whole history of the partition of India, which Britain generally opposed in spite of the fact that the resident population of what is now Pakistan/Bangladesh clearly did not want to be governed by Hindus in Delhi. My point here being that the more we look for examples of whether or not countries accept the right of populations to self-determination, the more we see it's just about what suits who & when. Look at Spain. They claim Gibraltar, a theoretically historically strategically important place in spite of 99% or so saying they want to stay British, but deny Catalan independence (economically vital to Spain) where it seems highly likely that in excess of 90% of the population want an independent nation.
So I don't think it's just a simple case of 'bad' Russia wanting to take over 'good' Ukraine whilst the 'good' West tries to stop them. A good case in point here is the one that I made about Germany. They are heavily dependent on Russian gas & (as de facto leaders of the EU) are already blowing cold about any involvement. Rumours suggest that they refuse to allow any planes carrying military aid to fly through their airspace. At the very least, Britain & probably others are avoiding German airspace to avoid any sort of diplomatic row. So their priority would strongly appear to be protecting their gas supply/the price they pay for it over & above concerns for the citizenry of Eastern Ukraine.
My point really is that if you want to understand what's going on, why & how it might ultimately resolve, just follow the money.
Dont disagree with any of that really. But I think Russia just has to accept the situation its in. Ukraine ISNT its property and has a right to do whatever it wants in terms of its place in the world as an independent nation. Just because its in Russia's interests to not have Ukraine in NATO ( because its positioned itself as an enemy of NATO ) , or in the EU ( not sure why thats something they need to fear ) or to have control of Ukrainian property like ports and pipelines, doesnt mean they have any right to threaten their way to it, or even worse forcibly take it. |
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 26, 2022 11:01:44 GMT
But I think Russia just has to accept the situation its in. Ukraine ISNT its property and has a right to do whatever it wants in terms of its place in the world as an independent nation. Some of it is. Have you heard of Crimea? Here, let me fill a few gaps in your knowledge. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendumJust because its in Russia's interests to not have Ukraine in NATO ( because its positioned itself as an enemy of NATO ) , or in the EU ( not sure why thats something they need to fear ) or to have control of Ukrainian property like ports and pipelines, doesnt mean they have any right to threaten their way to it, or even worse forcibly take it. Crimea. Russian. 92% referendum... It's amazing how the MSM in Europe blatantly ignores the facts to suit an anti Russian agenda. |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 26, 2022 11:27:53 GMT
So you think this current situation is about Crimea then?
Thats what the Russians are threatening to do.. invade Crimea, which they already control??
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 26, 2022 14:00:08 GMT
So you think this current situation is about Crimea then? Thats what the Russians are threatening to do.. invade Crimea, which they already control?? No, it's about stopping the EU from snatching Crimea from Russia, whether through NATO, US military hardware or by dragging them into the EU with bribes, of which the EU are already 6BN Euros in, for someone they claim not to be trying to expand their empire to. Take the MSM blinkers off. We're the aggressor here, not Russia. |
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Post by captslapper on Jan 26, 2022 15:36:19 GMT
So the EU are about to launch an invasion of Crimea and chuck the Russians out? ..Take on their huge military might for the benefit of...well...erm...having access to the Black Sea so they can ship stuff to Turkey?. Just incase the Mediterranean dries up? And theyre going to do this without any help or support from Germany, the member that basically controls and finances the EU? And the Russians are so worried about this imminent attack they've been forced, reluctantly as the mere victims that they are, to deploy a huge army on the border of the rest of Ukraine? Just in case? I didnt know Putin published Ladybird books!  Again, the EU doesnt need to 'drag the Ukraine in' ... they could have welcomed them in as a member at any time they liked for donkeys years...its the EU who havent wanted them, not the other way round. |
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 26, 2022 16:19:50 GMT
S Again, the EU doesnt need to 'drag the Ukraine in' ... they could have welcomed them in as a member at any time they liked for donkeys years...its the EU who havent wanted them, not the other way round. Oh Jesus H. The EU are spending billions on Ukraine to groom them into expanding their ever growing empire. There's a huge political problem currently stopping them, called Crimea, which is disputed land. A referendum was held a few years ago, as you full well now know but still ignore, so as 97% of Crimean's are Russian, they wanted Russian rule, Russia rules it. The EU and Pro EU Ukranians of course, dispute it belongs to Russia. Russia, as well as protecting the 97% Russian population, also need it for their naval base with access to the Med, the EU are just a power hungry all conquering Federal Super State trying to expand it's borders to the Kremlin's doorstep. It really is that simple. If you were Russian, who's side would you be on? This is like the EU trying to steal Northern Ireland from the UK, but if you allow the anti Russian MSM to give you your news, you won't see NATO as the aggressor here. |
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 26, 2022 16:21:58 GMT
I'll try again...
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Post by captslapper on Jan 26, 2022 16:45:33 GMT
IT DOESNT MATTER IF RUSSIA FEELS THREATENED!!! So what?
Thats their problem! And its a problem they have created for themselves by going out of their way to position themselves as the enemy of NATO.
If FORMER ( thats FORMER ) soviet nations join NATO.,then they can. They are independent countries! Its got fuck all to do with Russia what they choose to do... these countries are NOT Russian anymore!
You seem to think Russia has a right to stop other countries doing what they want to! They dont!
And once again..the EU could have had Ukraine as member YEARS ago if they wanted to.. yet you've managed to convince yourself that this is about the EUs attempts to force them to join.
Ukraine has been desperate to join the EU for donkeys years!! Its the EU that hasn't wanted them!!
And the EU is about to launch a military attack on Russia, without Germany, to get Crimea ..
Its actually more fanciful than Jesus H !
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Post by Wilsonwilson on Jan 26, 2022 18:56:49 GMT
If Russia started encouraging EU nations to join a newly formed USSR.
When would you start to feel threatened? When they got to Belgium, France, Germany, Poland? This is the reverse of what the EU is doing in the Balkans. It now has eyes on a country which Russia controls one major region of, with the backing of the vast majority of the people who live there and are NOT pro EU
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